World Affairs
Vol 2, Number 1 (Jan - Mar '98)

India's Journey: Fifty Years Of Independence

Will the India of tomorrow be an India of new opportunities? Interviewed on the eve of the general elections, Prime Minister IK Gujral outlines India's achievements and failures in the last fifty years and spotlights the challenges facing the country as it enters the new millenium.

World Affairs: What in your view, are the most salient achievements of India in these five decades of Independence? And what have been some of India's major failures during this period? Where did we do wrong?

IK Gujral: India's achievements during the first five decades have in the larger historical perspective been far reaching. We have succeeded in maintaining the unity of our nation and in keeping this vast country together. The greatest achievement of India since Independence has undoubtedly been the establishment of a democratic and secular system of government and politics. The leadership of Jawaharlal Nehru in providing a vision for a modern, forward-looking nation on the mixed economy model and in creating an infrastructure for its realization has been one of his greatest contributions to India. Its functioning as a unified dynamic nation, over the last half century, is a great tribute to the people of India, to Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, Sardar Patel and to hundreds of others, who worked towards achieving this objective.

Our achievements in these five decades have been huge by any standards, although some shortcomings do remain owing to lack of adequate, planned, and sustained efforts in the areas of rural development, education, health and family planning. It is a matter of personal embarrassment to me as prime minister of India that safe drinking water is not available to all my countrymen, and that illiteracy and unequal opportunity, especially for women, are still widespread in our country. Major variations in achievements in different states show that there was need for a massive effort both by the centre and the states. Power without ethics and morality in our policy, and responsibility without power and accountability in our public sector, have been some of our other failures.

WA: What are the priorities that need to be addressed today? Has your government established a short list of what you consider crucial issues for India to focus its attention on, as we approach the end of this century?

IKG: We have made commendable progress in building a modern India, confident of itself and its capability to meet challenges from its own resources. Within this context, an important imperative is the empowerment of that India which is still battling with the problem of hunger, shelter and disease. The need to temper growth with equity was a legacy of the founding fathers of our nation. The time has come to give that legacy a more complete implementation. The imperative of today is to move beyond just intentions. We must bring actual change at the ground level.

We have made progress in developing cooperative federalism within our polity. This has to be built up. India is too vast and too diverse to be ruled by the uniformity of an excessively centralized State. It must allow the fullest representation of its great diversities, and this can only be possible within the framework of a vibrant and cooperative federalism. I believe that a polity which progressively makes this possible will strengthen the unity of the nation. I have personal experience of presiding over a cabinet which has representations from almost every part of the country, and which enables all the regions to get a chance to directly participate in national governance. This is specially important because the India of tomorrow will be the India of new opportunities.

A fundamental priority must be to combat seriously the loss of ethics, of values, of principles, of a sense of rectitude and of probity, in our polity today. For a democracy to be truly great, people must not only have freedom to vote; they must also have the freedom of choice -- not between the bad and the worse, but between the best and the better. It is a matter of regret that criminals have found a refuge in the political process. There is a prime need to restore decency and basic virtues in public life.

Another important issue relates to our foreign policy interactions. India must emerge as a factor of peace and stability in the region. This does not for a moment imply that we become in any way less sensitive to our national interests. What this does imply is a larger vision and the ability to see beyond the immediate, with a view to pursuing our long term interests. I am happy that there already seems to be a consensus on the need to continue policies which enhance the atmosphere of trust and cooperation in our region.

WA: After the partition of the sub-continent India remained united. This is undoubtedly remarkable and you emphasised this in a recent interview with the BBC. But, separatist movements in Kashmir persist, as they do to some extent still in the Punjab, and threaten to grow in Northeastern India. To what do you attribute these trends, particularly in areas contiguous to neighbouring countries? How does it affect our security?

IKG: Indian unity is not just based on politico-socio-economic imperatives, but has a much deeper, more fundamental meaning. There has been a civilisational unity and continuity in our country through 5000 years of history. We have had some problems in our border states and there is conclusive evidence that some of these problems originate from sources outside the country. This makes it essential that our international and external security issues receive top priority. Next, we must ensure that the youth of our country are given new opportunities, new hopes and new challenges, and that they do not feel cut off from the national mainstream, Finally, Indians who are somewhat better off need to free themselves, once and for all, of the illusion that the successful in this country can secede. There cannot be two Indias in one -- the one progressing and looking ahead and the other static.

WA: Frankly all the different attempts on the part of successive governments to manage these crises have failed. Don't you think that new ideas and new solutions need to be sought?

IKG: Earlier governments have made progress in tackling these problems. There has been an ongoing process of normalization in these areas. The situation in Punjab has become stable due to the determination of the state to combat secessionist forces, as well as through the people's participation in this. The situation in Kashmir today is well under control. We have taken, and will continue to take, further action to address these problems. Our recent policy orientations to improve relations with the bordering states have shown satisfactory results. What is required now is hard work, discipline, unity of purpose and faith in the future of the country and in our people.

WA: The great achievements appreciated by all, inside and outside the country, are Indian stability and Indian democracy. Now that India has entered the coalition phase at the Centre, don't you think that, sooner or later, this will create serious problems of viable governance which in turn could jeopardise Indian stability and Indian democracy? Even if it is more representative than single party government, the multi-party coalition you are now heading has slowed down the whole decision making process, has it not?

IKG: We have to develop a coalition culture as coalition governments are going to be quite a normal feature of the politics in India, as indeed they are elsewhere in the world. I would say that coalition governments have in many respects proved to be more democratic and transparent than single party governments. I have personal experience of presiding over a very representative cabinet. I have been part of cabinet deliberations under successive governments for more than 25 years now, and I can assure you that cabinet decisions are more truly unanimous now than they have ever been in the past. Starting from different standpoints, through negotiations and dialogue, genuinely unanimous decisions are arrived at. It is true that the processes leading to a consensus are time consuming, but with the passage of time as we become better versed in coalition-governance, this too will improve.

WA: What are your basic assumptions on Indian development? Do you see a basic framework on which India can focus for its development?

IKG: The only way we can approach the problems of poverty and development are through our own national efforts along a path dictated by our needs and priorities. The basic framework around which our development effort must be centred is the need for growth with equity. The rural-urban divide, the gap between the industrialised and the backward states, must all be bridged. As I have said earlier, there cannot be two Indias -- one at the cutting edge of globalisation and the other resigned to marginalisation. Our march forward must carry with it everybody, our goal must be to ensure a genuine improvement in the quality of life for all our countrymen.

WA: One of the major economic developments since the demise of the cold war, is greater marketisation of the Indian economy. There is a general impression that this process has slowed down, presumably under pressure from different political and ideological interests who would prefer the status quo or favour another economic direction. Do you accept this argument? If so, to what do you attribute it? Has India really thought out the broad economic direction it wishes to take? Are we still in the transition phase in our conceptual thinking regarding the whole problem of development?

IKG: India accounts for 16 per cent of the world's population, but possesses just two per cent of the world's land area and only one per cent of its resources. These statistics underpin the imperatives of liberalisation and globalisation. While moving with caution, we have to accommodate these processes, taking into account the fast changing situation within India and in the international environment. Our strategy of economic development has to address the needs of the large mass of our people. In our highly evolved democratic polity, where the people understand their interests and power, nothing else will be acceptable. Pandit Nehru outlined a broad strategy for a mixed economy, which has stood the test of time. While the broad outlines are clear, our strategies will have to be fine-tuned to keep pace with the requirements of the times.

WA: Much of the economic thinking -- at least at the international level -- is moving away from the building of gigantic projects which do not have any effect on the eradication of poverty. The World Bank is one of them. It has now declared that it wants to focus principally on programmes that have a visible and rapid effect on the removal or the restriction of poverty. Don't you think that India should also move in that direction by focusing on very specific projects, such as providing drinking water to people, setting up an efficient public transportation system, improving santitry conditions, slowing down the process of urbanisation that is strangling Indian cities, etc?

IKG: I agree that we have to emphasize people oriented project like education, drinking water, employment generation, public transportation and so on, because these will influence the quality of life and the welfare of the people. Uncontrolled urbanisation and the difficulties of rural life must be dealt with from the larger economic, political and human angles.

WA: Corruption is rampant in India. Practically every infrastructural development -- telecommunications, transport, roads, defence, internal security -- ends in a scam of vast proportions. You have taken a firm stand against it. But what concrete steps has your government taken, or planned to take, to eradicate what has become pandemic in the country?

IKG: Fighting corruption has been our foremost priority with a view to ensure that all those who are damaging our national interests are brought within the ambit of the law and given exemplary punishment. We have expedited the filing of charges against many alleged culprits, and we are seeking co-operation of the courts not to delay this process of justice, both in the human and national interest. As you know, I have set up an anti-corruption cell in my office to monitor and expedite enquiries into corruption charges. But, ultimately, our people will have to be at the forefront of the fight against corruption; it is the people who must display their complete unwillingness to tolerate corruption, whether it is in their day-to-day life or in their public men -- it is this widespread social reaction that will defeat corruption.

WA: Is globalisation a threat to the existing Indian economic system? Can we escape its on-going pressures to globalise everything? Is it desirable? Is it unavoidable? Can it succeed in this day and age? While the G-7 and international organisations are pressing for its acceleration, others are becoming alarmed by the deleterious effects it is generating. What should we do?

IKG: Like any challenge, globalisation can be a threat, or it can be an opportunity. It is for us to address this challenge in a positive spirit. But in many ways, globalisation is inevitable and we have to arrange our economic system and our financial institutions in a manner so as to be able to withstand the political, economic and technological pressures of globalisation. India has always been part of the global system. We were in the centre of the trade routes between Europe, Asia and Africa, and these linkages go far back into history. Our internal weaknesses made us frequent victims of aggression and we suffered over 200 years of colonialism. Till today, we bear the scars of this forced internationalisation and exploitation, including the partition of the country. Globalisation for technical reasons may be a new word, but we have for long lived with its consequences. Therefore, we have to understand this and plan our own safety nets to become self-reliant and sustainable. Any forced globalisation of the economy can have negative consequences, and the integration of our economy into the global economy must, therefore, proceed with caution and in a planned manner.

WA: The position you took at the Commonwealth summit meeting was that any further attempts -- through agreements -- to accelerate globalisation should be stopped for the time being. Does this represent only an Indian view, or do other developing countries go along with this line of thinking?

IKG: Our views on globalisation had strong support among the countries of the Commonwealth.

WA: A number of leading industrialists within the country are becoming concerned about its negative effects. They seem to be opposed to the unbridled opening up of India. What are your views on the question?

IKG: While we will consult Indian industrialists on specific issues, as we have been doing in the recent past, issues concerning the viability of Indian industry under a rapidly changing environment and the determination of broad, national interests can only be undertaken by the government.

WA: Globalisation is also promoting extreme forms of consumerism and violence. This is disrupting the entire human and ecological system. Can we afford to allow this?

IKG: Extreme forms of consumerism do indeed have the potential to distort normal human and ecological systems. As Gandhiji said, "The Earth produces enough for everybody's need, but not for everybody's greed." Balanced growth accompanied by humanism, compassion, and the adherence to a moral order alone can constitute the foundations of a sustainable human society. We must strive against inequitable consumption of resources, and we must stymie the establishment of high-consumption and high-waste societies that have to be finally protected with lethal arms. They have been the root cause of conflict in the past. This is not our conception of the global order.

WA: In this context, do we have something to learn from financial intervention in Asian markets?

IKG: We have learnt some important lessons from the recent events in Asia, and they will guide us in planning our own strategies for liberalisation. Foremost among them is to move with caution.

WA: Can we discuss some macro, domestic issues -- population explosion for example? No government has been successful in really controlling this unimpeded population growth. Now projections are being made that India in the next couple of decades will overtake China. Do you have views on this question?

IKG: This is a matter of concern. The family planning movements, etc. have been going on for a long time. But our numbers have been multiplying all the same. We are now nearly 970 million people. Experience has taught us one basic thing: mere posters, propaganda, films, etc. don't solve the problems. What is important is how fast and how many people we can induct into, what I choose to call, the standard of living circuit. You will find that it is among the 40 per cent or so of the Indian population, which constitutes the market, that families consist of one or two children. But once you come to the 60 per cent, which is still left out, it is then that you are confronted with a problem. I think this problem is totally associated with poverty. Therefore, poverty amelioration programmes are bound to have an impact on family composition and family size. Propaganda does not work, it only converts the converted. Its effect does not go down the line and that is why we have come to the conclusion that we should emphasise three things: poverty amelioration programmes, education of women and also literacy programmes. If we can move forward in these three areas, unbridled population expansion can be controlled.

WA: What about education? Clearly India has very limited resources. It has to make a choice. Some argue that India should focus its attention and its resources on achieving the goal of basic education for all, while others -- more economic oriented -- consider that it should devote much of its limited resources to higher education, which will help India to move forward economically.

IKG: With regard to education, it is being increasingly recognised that education, in general, and basic education, in particular, will be an important factor in the modernisation, liberalisation and globalisation of the economy. Without education, the empowerment of the large mass of people, particularly women, is well-nigh impossible. India will have to direct much greater resources to education up to the high-school level. However, in the present world environment, higher technical education cannot be ignored.

WA: How do you assess the post-cold war situation? What, in your view, are the major mutations that have taken place in the international system, and what is India doing to adapt itself to the new situation to protect its interests?

IKG: The post-cold war situation and the demise of the Soviet Union have established an ideological balance of power vacuum in the international environment. Furthermore, it has constricted the different alternatives of seeking solutions to the problems of poverty in developing countries. While earlier they could choose points on the spectrum between planned and laissez-faire economies, now the pressures are building up to marketise the entire economic system around the world. This has obviously caused the massive concentration of economic power in a few countries and even more in a few hands. I believe that the emergence of strong regional groupings such as the European Union, ASEAN and SAARC can alone negate these trends.

WA: Has India taken a position on the proposals made by the Secretary General of the UN for the reforming of the UN system? What are the chances of India becoming a permanent member of the Security Council?

IKG: The position in this regard is still evolving.

WA: Is non-alignment really relevant to the post-Cold War era? Since the non-aligned countries have decided to maintain their international institutional structures, including non-aligned summit meetings, are attempts being made to adapt the whole concept to the post-cold war era?

IKG: Non-alignment does not necessarily mean that there have to be two super powers, so that we can exercise our right to align with one or the other. Non-alignment means resisting unjust causes or undue exercise of power. The urge for development is the central point that keeps us together. I believe the movement will find its own orientations in the changing world environment. This is particularly important during an era of unipolarisation.

WA: What is the present state of Sino-Indian relations and Indo-Russian relations? Are they progressing or have we reached an impasse?

IKG: We appreciate the way China has developed. However, the quantum of financial investment from outside has been higher in the case of China than in India. This has created a new economic picture in that country. As far as India's relations with China are concerned, they are on a fast track. There was a long period of misunderstanding between us. One of the handicaps of traditional societies is that when they make peace, they do it very slowly. Our relationship with China can only be viewed in a historical perspective. The continuity of our many cultural links and commonality of interests augur well for a harmonious relationship in the future.

Our relationship with the Soviet Union, and now with Russia, has been exceedingly friendly and warm. The Soviet Union made a major contribution to our efforts in setting up the defence, power and metal industries' infrastructure. In the area of defence, we regard Russian co-operation as invaluable. Our mutual security pacts which lasted for over 25 years contributed greatly to Indian security. The breakdown of the Soviet Union did not affect our relationship with Russia; it only slowed the progress of co-operation. Now there has been a distinct improvement in the mechanism for co-operation, and President Yeltsin will be paying us a visit very soon, the Indo-Russian relationship will make an important contribution towards the emerging new world order, world peace, and co-operation in trade. We believe that we have entered a new phase in our relations with Russia.

WA: How do you assess the present state of Indo-American relations, particularly after your recent meeting with President Clinton?

IKG: There are many factors including democratic polity in the two countries which have kept our relationship on an even keel. Both sides are making continuous efforts to upgrade this relationship to higher levels. Discussions are now underway for creating a mechanism for a continuing dialogue between our two countries. We are now coming to a stage where the mist of misunderstanding has been lifted, and there is greater mutual understanding. Also there is greater appreciation for Indian institutions and an appreciation for our programme for the future. My most recent meeting with President Clinton and Mrs Hillary Clinton contributed greatly towards this effort. But we do often have different perspectives on the world situation, as also on our economic and security interests. The fact that we have, through the decades, been resolving these differences through negotiations is an important factor, and it will hopefully continue to be so in the future.

WA: Regional cooperation/integration is one of the major developments in the post-cold war era. What could accelerate the process in South Asia, which is clearly still behind other regions regarding this?. What about the Indian Pacific Ocean Rim? Can we find a common focus and commonality of interests? Can we neutralise the negative effects of G-7 policies by establishing good working relations with members of the Indian Pacific Ocean Rim and with China and Russia?

IKG: Regional cooperation is the logical and obvious course for us to follow. There are many cultural, trade and other links, particularly between the countries of Asia and Africa, which go beyond proximity and complementarity. Many of the bonds which were snapped during the colonial period are now being restored.

We have taken many steps towards the emergence of a South Asian market of nearly 1.5 billion people. It could be a major force in the world environment. The SAARC countries have come to the conclusion that we must go in for preferential trade agreements and move towards a free trade zone. This first phase, i.e., SAPTA, has been put into operation and is working reasonably well. Similarly, the ASEAN and Indian Pacific Ocean Rim countries, are steadily coming together. The Indian Ocean Rim initiative is a valuable meeting point for Indian Ocean countries, with great potential for intra-regional trade and cooperation. The increasing political and economic pressures on the region are slowly, but surely, bringing about the realisation that only by staying together can they approach the problems of development, security and freedom.

WA: The so-called Gujral doctrine has apparently helped India in improving relations with some of its neighbours, but not with Pakistan. Despite all your efforts to improve relations, do you think that a breakthrough is really feasible unless the Kashmir issue is solved to the satisfaction of both countries?

IKG: Our relations with our neighbouring countries have improved considerably during the last few years. The seeds of such co-operation have always been there; what has been called the Gujral doctrine only helped in crossing a few bridges. The relationship with Pakistan still carries some historical baggage. Throughout my tenure as external affairs minister and then as prime minister, I have sought to build a working and tranquil relationship with Pakistan. Unilaterally we have taken several steps to ease travel and other restrictions between our two countries. I have had several meetings with the Pakistan prime minister, and our foreign secretaries have met on several occasions. We are working on the relationship, and we hope the leaders of Pakistan will see that the way ahead is the way of cooperation and dialogue.

WA: With the increasing marketisation of the global economy, don't you think that the time has come for the Indian intellectual elite to seriously and collectively think out India's new societal options in the post-cold war era?

IKG: India is changing; that change is organic and comes from within. The mindset of the past is disappearing. At the same time, our commitment to social and redistributive justice needs understanding and appreciation. The developing countries of today will become the high economic frontiers of tomorrow. If today they are not provided better terms of trade and market access, and greater resources for their critical, developmental needs, the consequences will adversely affect global prosperity tomorrow.

WA: We would like to end this interview on a personal note. How do you see your own intellectual journey since your membership of the Communist Party in the forties?

IKG: My intellectual journey has followed a path of reason, justice and commitment to certain human ideals. Whenever I saw injustice, inhumanity or oppression of man by man in any form, I joined the forces that were fighting it. My energies were directed against the colonial forces and then, after independence, they were channelled into the task of building a modern and forward-looking nation, which each and every citizen could be proud to call his own.